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Am I a domestic client (CDM)? by warric48 on 15 Oct 2009 15:08

Maybe somebody can help me to confirm my status.....

We have no connection with building/construction trades or businesses. My wife has owned a property for the last 13 years, which we have used as a second/holiday home. It has 2 storeys, and we are in the late stages of planning to convert it into 2 flats. Planning and BR approval has been granted, with the aid of a local architect who was going to project manage the job. We have now decided to do this ourselves. Our plan is to sell one of the flats, and keep the other one for our retirement in about 3 years time.

Whilst they were involved, the architect decided that I was not a domestic client, because I was planning to sell one of the flats. Apparently, this made me a 'developer'. Now that we are organising things ourselves, I have done a lot of reading about CDM 2007, and I feel I would be classed as a domestic client, with no duties under CDM. I wish I had done the reading before, as our architect advised me to appoint a CDM co-ordinator, and I ended up paying them a lot of money!

Any comments would be most appreciated.

Richard

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Re: Am I a domestic client (CDM)? by Paul Woodard on 15 Oct 2009 16:08

As you are doing up one of the flats to sell you would be classified as a client under CDM.

You could argue that you were converting into flats because that is the way you wanted to utilise your holiday home but I suspect it is also a holiday let and if that is the case then any construction work carried out on this property has to be in compliance with CDM.

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Re: Am I a domestic client (CDM)? by Andy Allan (structural Engineer, designer) on 15 Oct 2009 16:09

Richard

I'd say, offhand, that your Architect is absolutely correct. The division of one property into two, resulting in financial gain, will inevitably be classified as a commercial venture. Look at it this way; if the worst happens, and you had taken a decision to regard yourself as exempt, you would be in the position of having to prove that your decision was within the law. The enforcing authority would take the interpretation I have just given, and you might be in the position of facing criminal charges in the event that you could not convince the Court that your interpretation was right. Whether or not your choice makes any difference to health and safety on site is a moot point - in a perfect world it should make none. But, in the words of ('dirty') Harry Callaghan - "do you feel lucky?"

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Re: Am I a domestic client (CDM)? by Mike Waters on 15 Oct 2009 16:14

If you are selling one of the flats you are a developer and not, therefore,
a domestic client. CDM applies and a CDM Coord is required.

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Re: Am I a domestic client (CDM)? by Paul Woodard on 15 Oct 2009 16:20

A CDM Co-ordinator will not be required though if the conversion works take less than 30 construction days or involve less than 500 person days.

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Re: Am I a domestic client (CDM)? by Billy Hare on 15 Oct 2009 16:20

In response to the "domestic" CDM client.

Have a read of this prosecution of three members of the Freeman family, following a fatal fall from height, which included failing to appoint a PS (now referred to as CDMC) http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05058.htm which resulted in £100,000 fine for the "developers"

Then read this quote on the case from Safety & Health Practitioner Magazine:
Speaking to SHP after the case, Simon Freeman said he and his brother and sister were not "property developers", as they were referred to by the HSE - they had inherited the property in question from their mother some years ago and were gradually refurbishing it. Said Mr Freeman: "We had no idea there were health and safety obligations on us. We're not builders - we never have been. We had a competent builder and thought he would be able to deal with it."

The Freemans thought they were "domestic clients" HSE decided they were not. I would say there are striking similarities to both circumstances and you would do well to employ the services of a CDMC.

Regards
Billy Hare
Glasgow Caledonian University

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Re: Am I a domestic client (CDM)? by warric48 on 16 Oct 2009 09:03

I must thank everybody who has replied to my OP, it has been a bit of an eye-opener. After reading through the links etc, I am looking at the whole thing in a different light. If there was any doubt before, I feel now that "better safe than sorry" is the way to go.

However, it made me think about the things I have been reading lately, and prompted me to go back to the HSE CDM2007 Approved Code of Practice, I quote:

"Domestic clients are people who have work done on their own home or the home of a family member, that does not relate to a trade or business, whether for profit or not. It is the type of client that matters, not the type of property. Local authorities, housing associations, charities, landlords and other businesses may own domestic property, but they are not domestic clients. If the work is in connection with the furtherance of a business attached to domestic premises, such as a shop, the client is not a domestic client."

This is work on our own home (maybe not our main residence for IR purposes, but it doesn't state that is a requirement)
It does not relate to a trade or business.
Whether it is for profit or not is explicitly not relevant.

This does appear to be a clearly-worded definition, although it seems the general opinion in the real world is different. Should the definition be revised?

Anyway, many thanks again for your help.
Richard

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Re: Am I a domestic client (CDM)? by PP Construction Safety on 21 Oct 2009 09:04

The question you need to ask yourself is: Am I seeking to engage contractors etc "in the course or furtherance of a business"? If the answer is yes, you are a CDM client. If the answer is no, you have no CDM duties. From the facts presented the answer appears to be no. Hope this helps.

Philip
www.ppconstructionsafety.com

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Re: Am I a domestic client (CDM)? by Rob Slater on 16 Oct 2009 09:01

My reading of your situation would be that your Architect is correct. A 'Domestic Client' is one who is having work done on his own property for his own benefit. As you are doing this for financial gain you would be classed as a Client or Developer.

My advice - go find a CDMC.

Rob

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Re: Am I a domestic client (CDM)? by warric48 on 16 Oct 2009 09:47

Rob, I understand your position on this, but the wording in the ACoP is very clear - "whether for profit or not". This seems to rule out the financial gain that you mention.

Richard

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