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Professional Opinions

Safetymad 6 years ago   Reply

With reference to the web page 'Conditions of Use ':

 Dear all, I have followed many threads posted over the last few of years. It has never ceased to amaze me how many well qualified H/S professionals appear to have opinions that differ and are so far apart. WHY?? I  believe that the (HSE) guidance we all work with is too vague and open to interpretation, therefore creating differences of opinions. Until we, as H/S professionals are given black and white completely unambiguous HSE documentation to work with, WE will be debating points of issue for ever more.

Your thoughts please ladies and gents, Best Regards Safetymad. 

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bob.youel 6 years ago   Reply

In my view we only do what the various law lords and other professionals do and noting that is different and it will never change and you will have to wait an incredibly long time to get black and white guidance as its barristers and the like that run the country/world and they like it the way it is

 

From: Safetymad [mailto:construction-senderhidden@«hidden»]
Sent: 13 January 2012 10:14
To: Construction Discussion Forum
Subject: [construction] Professional Opinions

 

-- Repeated lines have been removed. Click to show them. --

With reference to the web page 'Conditions of Use ':

 Dear all, I have followed many threads posted over the last few of years. It has never ceased to amaze me how many well qualified H/S professionals appear to have opinions that differ and are so far apart. WHY?? I  believe that the (HSE) guidance we all work with is too vague and open to interpretation, therefore creating differences of opinions. Until we, as H/S professionals are given black and white completely unambiguous HSE documentation to work with, WE will be debating points of issue for ever more.

Your thoughts please ladies and gents, Best Regards Safetymad. 

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mickn2k 6 years ago   Reply

With regard to Safetymad's comment.  Surely it's much more beneficial that the HSE are not too prescriptive in their guidance.  If everything was, "black and white" we would all be trotting around construction sites like automatons !  If it's flexible so much the better.  As human beings we are DNA'd to have differing approaches and opinions, particularly in the realms of health and safety.  In the construction industry those health and safety zealots who are unswerving in their interpretation of regulations and never do the extra mile to make things work, safely,usually end up with a P45.  

Geraint Thomas 6 years ago   Reply
Safetymad   All professionals are like this, if you ask six different practitioners, you will get six different opinions. In the real world, you  get the six together round a table and a consensus  emerges,  you might think that  this would be the way of a forum. However, the real purpose of a forum is to bring out all shades of opinion so each member can decide for himself. On some subjects we have protracted repetitive discussions with no apparent consensus until the last person standing thinks he has won the argument, but really the readership has made up it's mind way before the end, and the purpose of the forum has been achieved at that stage.    Should Lofstedt result in more prescriptive advice in ACOPs, there will be less need to interpret, less to disagree over, and logically fewer H&S professionals required. So perhaps it is just as well  this forum is for everyone who has an interest in construction safety.   Regards Geraint      
From: Safetymad [mailto:construction-senderhidden@«hidden»]
Sent: 13 January 2012 10:14
To: Construction Discussion Forum
Subject: [construction] Professional Opinions

With reference to the web page 'Conditions of Use ':

 Dear all, I have followed many threads posted over the last few of years. It has never ceased to amaze me how many well qualified H/S professionals appear to have opinions that differ and are so far apart. WHY?? I  believe that the (HSE) guidance we all work with is too vague and open to interpretation, therefore creating differences of opinions. Until we, as H/S professionals are given black and white completely unambiguous HSE documentation to work with, WE will be debating points of issue for ever more.

Your thoughts please ladies and gents, Best Regards Safetymad. 

Ken Cain 6 years ago   Reply
Deep down, do we really want Health and Safety to be black and white, no grey area's, easy to understand. Of course we don't, because if it was, we might all be out of work.   Out of chaos comes forth sweetness.   Ken Cain

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George 6 years ago   Reply



I believe that prior to the 1974 Act the legislation was very prescriptive
and was indeed a lot more black and white than it is now. It didn't work.
The idea of differences in opinion isn't necessarily a bad one. Many of
these differences will result in the safe outcome we all desire, some are
down right dangerous. There have been many prosecutions of Safety types
over the last number of years due to negligence/incompetence, so we don't
always get it right, but it is very very difficult to black and white
legislation for the vastly diverse industrial situations we face.

I think that a lot of the disagreement is academic and offers no real risk
to any one i.e. should the mandatory banning of equipment's etc be
allowed?, there was a passionate debate with many opinions (mine being the
correct one,, obviously) but I think the learning opportunities from such
debates are endless.
I do think that there is too much legislation etc. I would like to see a
backbone of two documents, one is the Act itself and the other is the
management regs, the rest should be up to the employer to decide on the
safest way to meet the goals of the act whilst using the management regs as
guidance, where they fail to meet these requirements they should be
prosecuted as they are now.
Take care
George



Ken Cain
<construction-sen
derhidden@«hidden» To
unities.hse.gov.u Construction Discussion Forum
k> <construction@«hidden»
v.uk>
16/01/2012 10:18 cc

Subject
Please respond to Re:[construction] Professional
construction@«hidden» Opinions
ommunities.hse.go
v.uk






HSE Web Communities
Construction Discussion Forum
Deep down, do we really want Health and Safety to be black and white, no
grey area's, easy to understand. Of course we don't, because if it was, we
might all be out of work.

Out of chaos comes forth sweetness.

Ken Cain
----- Original Message -----
From: Safetymad
To: Construction Discussion Forum
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 10:13 AM
Subject: [construction] Professional Opinions


With reference to the web page 'Conditions of Use ':


Dear all, I have followed many threads posted over the last few of
years. It has never ceased to amaze me how many well qualified H/S
professionals appear to have opinions that differ and are so far
apart. WHY?? I believe that the (HSE) guidance we all work with is
too vague and open to interpretation, therefore creating differences
of opinions. Until we, as H/S professionals are given black and
white completely unambiguous HSE documentation to work with, WE will
be debating points of issue for ever more.


Your thoughts please ladies and gents, Best Regards Safetymad.

HSE Construction Forum - construction@«hidden» - Group
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Steve 6 years ago   Reply

i tend to agree with the OP. It's all very well having different opinions, even as professionals, and certainly on the highly debate-worthy subjects that appear on here.

However the problem to me is that, under H&S law, an employer has to seek "competent" H&S advice.  The fact that even "obvious" questions on here have such polarised responses demonstrates that "Competent" advice does not necessarily guarantee a safe system of work.  Accordingly an employer can be prosecuted, and someone can be hurt because the "correct" advice was not obtained from the "competent" advisor. 

i personally find that at least a little bit odd - that one can be prosecuted because the competent advice that was sought was not, with hindsight, correct.   I also find it at least a little bit odd that best H&S practice, as embodied in the ACOPs is to seek competent H&S advice, knowing full well that there is no single answer when one does seek competent advice. 

Hence i agree with our builder colleague here and think that there is scope for some (note i said some, and not lots) prescription in what we require employers to do. 

bob.youel 6 years ago   Reply

Why is it OK for all other professions to act one way e.g. discuss / give opinions / argue etc. yet H&S people should act another way and recite what somebody else has said/written down to their client

From: Steve [mailto:construction-senderhidden@«hidden»]
Sent: 18 January 2012 09:23
To: Construction Discussion Forum
Subject: Re:[construction] Professional Opinions

 

-- Repeated lines have been removed. Click to show them. --

i tend to agree with the OP. It's all very well having different opinions, even as professionals, and certainly on the highly debate-worthy subjects that appear on here.

However the problem to me is that, under H&S law, an employer has to seek "competent" H&S advice.  The fact that even "obvious" questions on here have such polarised responses demonstrates that "Competent" advice does not necessarily guarantee a safe system of work.  Accordingly an employer can be prosecuted, and someone can be hurt because the "correct" advice was not obtained from the "competent" advisor. 

i personally find that at least a little bit odd - that one can be prosecuted because the competent advice that was sought was not, with hindsight, correct.   I also find it at least a little bit odd that best H&S practice, as embodied in the ACOPs is to seek competent H&S advice, knowing full well that there is no single answer when one does seek competent advice. 

Hence i agree with our builder colleague here and think that there is scope for some (note i said some, and not lots) prescription in what we require employers to do. 

HSE Construction Forum - construction@«hidden» - Group Homepage - Unsubscribe

 


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This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and
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Charlie Says 6 years ago   Reply

AND if the government is to prescriptive on H&S management if leaves itself wide open to litigation when the prescriptive measures are not sufficiient and persons are still injured. To counteract this you will find that the prescriptive requirements would be unbeleivably onerous unless there are plenty of caveats.

Compare it to highway speed limits, they are not as prescriptive as they appear but they are advisory maximum depending on a number of caveats such as condition of vehicle, weather conditions, day or night etc.

essexBuilder 6 years ago   Reply

I tend to agree with you. I am familiar with HS standards in many countries and the ones put forth by HSE are by far the vaguest and most open to interpretation.

In my opinion safety standards should be fairly black and white; if there are widespread debates about its interpretation then something is wrong

cadva2006@yahoo.fr 6 years ago   Reply

Re : Professional Opinions

i share your opinion of safety standards been black and white ,but i believe they are already because they are quiet prescribetive ,and definate in accordance with different task and hazards. 

--- En date de : Mar 17.1.12, essexBuilder <construction-senderhidden@«hidden»> a écrit :

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