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What is the F10 for?

Bill Sowerbutts 3 months ago   Reply

Please – amid all this discussion – what is the purpose of the F10?

I can tell you what it doesn’t do…..

It isn’t to inform the workforce – they are already on site by the time they get chance to read it, and will already have been inducted.

It doesn’t inform the local authority as planning permissions will have done this.

It isn’t to inform HSE, LA or the Workforce of a project having a significant level of risk – as many high risk tasks, especially since 2015 are of too short a duration to qualify.

So it only seems to tell the HSE of projects that last a certain length of time. But surely that’s of limited value. I mean three houses built on a plot is notifiable, but constructing one smallish house under a high votage powerline isn’t?

Can any of you enlighten me further please?

 

Bill

Beagle 3 months ago   Reply
Bill, It really goes back to my original post. The Notification is so the HSE can contact the Client/PC and visit when works are being undertaken. So if I am doing £400M of work on 20 projects around London in the next 4 years for the same Client I can t really use a single Notification as this does not tell the HSE enough information to visit. Indeed number 2 under schedule 1 says requests "The address of the construction site or precise description of its location.". So strictly speaking a single notification is non compliant unless accompanied by more information as it does not give the "precise location" of each construction site.
Bill Sowerbutts 3 months ago   Reply

Ok so I can agree with that – but I’ve seen a single F10 to cover several streets of council asbestos removal and complete interior refits  (40-50 single storey houses in Linc). Similarly for roof repairs and re-painting…which sounds like your London job. Equally I’ve seen a financial package given to a single contractor to do building and refurbishment work all over a hospital campus. These scenarios to me don’t tell much at all. In fact one going F10 I know of in a Yorkshire city had 3 rented houses out of about 500 with asbestos in them. This was only found by the contractor. The client claimed they couldn’t displace the tenants who had to be moved out for a day while the works were done. The contractor moved in and nearly everywhere was a doddle, except for those exceptions….but they were so high risk that they should have been treated as individual sites and not “lumped in” to one project.

I suppose what I am really trying to get across here, is that the assumption is that duration and level of risk are somehow related – hence the reason for the F10. But this premise is a false one.  The HSE would be the first to condemn us for not risk assessing a project regardless of its length, but specifically according to what the tasks and environment are.  But the F10 offers no such insight for the enforcing authorities, who are missing out on knowledge of a whole plethora of high risk construction scenarios just because they don’t hit 500 person days.

Bill

Frank 3 months ago   Reply

Bill As always you show us a different view which I must agree with. The F10 is just a piece of paper with no value and no safety information that is not already submitted to the enforcing authorities and as you say the workforce is already in place and do not read it anyway. All of the required info is in the CPP which is also a mass of documents with very limited value on a construction site as again all decisions and preparations are already in place before work starts. Now you have got me started! the construction industry suffers with unacceptable injuries, deaths and absences and they attempt to stem this by insisting on wrapping you up in colour coded hats, gloves. glasses and then tightly wrap around you a huge amount of deforestation of useless documents. Money would be better spent educating and training workers and refusing to employ the cheapest available and making up for their lack of skill and awareness by protecting yourself with PPE uniforms and documents. Don't get me wrong all have their place but sole reliance is a huge mistake. The whole industry needs a complete review so we tackle a serious issue with a view to prevent incidents not prevent prosecution. Most people I know outside of construction do not have this scrutiny to this finite degree and yet they have lower incidents per 100,000. Agriculture is very high risk with unacceptable deaths, injuries etc and in the main farming is totally oblivious to H&S let alone CDM which shows that neither have it right?

AdrianG001 6 weeks ago   Reply

Hey,

 

Good to be part of this community

John W 2 months ago   Reply
All this discussion about "what is the F10 for" is not new. We all wondered that with that old multi-page thing we had to fill in by hand before the on-line service! It also puts into perspective the apparent urgency of keeping the F10 perfectly up to date with each new duration, (sub) contractor, changes of contact details and such like. Some people seem obsessed with this sort of thing and several updates of the form are expected. Is there any idea of what is actually done with them? (Anyone from HSE reading this?)
PP Construction Safety Ltd 2 months ago   Reply
Previous post asked re F10 "Is there any idea of what is actually done with them? (Anyone from HSE reading this?)" Unless there has been a radical change in the last 10 years. The FI0 information is primarily used to direct routine inspections of live construction sites, identify upcoming major projects for early intervention, know who is client and who has been appointed PD and PC. No comprehensive input to a searchable database of the notifications. No interest in updating information. FOI request to HSE may provide a more accurate picture..
Beagle 2 months ago   Reply
The F10 information is excessive. Should just be site address, planned commencement date and Client or PC contact details. That is all you need to arrange a visit. Similar to notifying an evaporative cooling tower, just 4 pieces of information. It is an admin burden and the schedule 1 requirements should be reduced. Also I don't recall any prosecution for not notifying or not providing or updating all the information in Sch1. I am definitely against the HSE trying to sell the information or use it for any other purpose apart from facilitating a visit and enforcement. Its also not clear what pieces of Sch1 need to be updated - a planned start date is a planned date at the time of notification. So unless the Client, Site, PC or PD change there is no reason to update.
James Ritchie 2 months ago   Reply

Re post regarding excessive information on the F10 and reducing the Schedule 1 list, you will only be able to do this when we leave the EU. The Schedule 1 requirements come from a transposition of the EU TMCS Directive and are therefore mandatory. If you don't like it you had better vote for Brexit then 'cos it won't change otherwise!!

Beagle 2 months ago   Reply
I agree get rid of the unnecessary admin so we can concentrate on improving safety. Vote Brexit and say good bye to silly notification rules, 5% VAT on women's sanitary protection and banning chlorinated chicken (for no scientific or health reason).
Wally Lishman 2 months ago   Reply

To play the devils advocate, one thing about the F10 is that it does tell the HSE the client has complied with their legal duties in appointing the PD and PC and other designers. Proactively it could allow them to make a quick search to see if any of those named have been prosecuted for failing in their duties and prompt visits to make sure the site is being run in a safe way and possibly prevent unnecessary injury or deaths. I am also sure the HSE would not miss out on the chance for FFI, of course I may be doing them a dis-service. The fact that we may leave the EU does not necessarily mean we will revoke or modify any legislation it was just an other bribe to get people to vote yes along with the 250 hospitals we are going to build.

The time spent on reading and replying to this blog was longer than it takes filling in an F10 and that time could have been better spent on dealing with safety issues! Have a nice day.

Beagle 8 weeks ago   Reply
Searching the F10 database to find the bad companies (PCs and PDs, contractors) in the industry would be a waste of time as they will not be on it ! I am not so sure this is legal, as this is outside the authority/scope for which the information was obtained/provided by the legislation. The HSE would be better off looking at Local Authority planning applications to check if initial F10s have been submitted and then send an FFI bill if they have not. I have not seen any prosecutions for failure to notify, but I am guessing there are many FFI charges for these type of issues where there has been a contravention and no further action legal action is taken.